I’ve always liked old team yearbooks for the photos and tons of information jammed into their pages. The image below comes from a page in the 1968 Oakland Raiders yearbook, which I was reading through this evening. Knowing full-well that the Raiders won the AFL championship in 1967, and that they had a strong vertical passing attack, it comes as no surprise that Fred Biletnikoff and Warren Wells would put up big numbers, but wow! Take a look…
Biletnikoff averaged 21.9 yards-per-reception, while Wells averaged 23.2 yards. Granted, they combined for less than 1200 total yards for the season, but those averages are amazing. Throughout his career, Wells averaged 23.1 yards, while Biletnikoff averaged a more human 15.2 yards.
Ironically, both Raiders stars were also drafted by the NFL’s Detroit Lions. Wells signed with Detroit in 1964, but saw only limited action in nine games. The Selective Service drafted Wells, and he spent the next two years in the Army at the height of the Vietnam War. Upon his return to football in 1967, Wells bounced from Detroit to the Kansas City Chiefs before finally sticking with the Raiders in 1967. He went on to have four exceptionally productive seasons before issues off the field caused him to leave the game.
Biletnikoff never again reached the 21.9 yards average that he put up in 1967, but he had an exceptional 14-year career with the Raiders that culminated with his induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1988.
The passing attacks of the AFL were heads above the NFL,that was of the things that attracted me to the new league. It was never three yards and a cloud of dust. on those Raider teams, between Stabler and Lamonica, it was bombs away, it was great viewing.
I was at a charity banquet in 1989 and I was seated at the same table with George Blanda. I asked about great wide receivers. He thought Jerry Rice was the greatest of all time. He praised Fred Biletnikoff as a very good receiver. I asked him about Warren Wells; He was not impressed by Wells. He said great speed, but ran poor patterns. And he mentioned off the field issues.
Also, I respectfully disagree with Eddie Arminio regarding NFL vs. AFL passing stats. While the AFL was perhaps a more “fun” league; less tradition bound, etc. Todd published several reports of comparative statistics for both leagues. They are very comparable. The perception of the AFL as a wide open league is probably based on the Chargers. The reality is that the AFL focused on balanced attacks as much as the NFL. The rest is mythology!
Howard/et al might find the following of interest
~ Two old articles talked about the AFL/NFL differences, passing and otherwise ~
One is still available (http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/dont-drink-the-afl-kool-aid/6955/)
Another no longer is (http://www.footballnation.com/content/everything-you-know-about-the-afl-is-wrong/6911/)
I read both long ago. While both present refutation general terms an equally general sentiment the AFL was more ‘big play’? than the NFL, the articles also state things that are portions arbitrary measure & that might appear substantial, but in fact do not take into consideration factors that can and do skew results and/or opinion.
It would take too much time & internet paper to rebut everything in detail, so just an example here. As only the first article cold hard facts (CHF) can be referenced, brief retort their seeming pleas of ‘kiss the NFL’s ring’, least my interpretation said.
Cold Hard Facts statements in “, my replies aft via – indication
“The Kool-Aid peddlers would lead you to believe that AFL quarterbacks thrilled fans with a never-ending series of new-age long bombs to rocket-like receivers”
– that much is true generally speaking; so far so good, CHF…
“while NFL offenses plodded through the decade with the dusty drudgery of a 19th-century Conestoga wagon train.”
– the NFL’s best team(s) 1960’s Packers did just that, in general… as such, it could be deduced that it was the NFL’s ‘lesser’ or ‘worst’ teams that in fact were being lit up by wide receivers & likewise ‘doing’ the lighting up vs the rest the teams.
The NFL Champs leading qualifying (a minimum # of catches required) wide receivers ypc 1960-1969 read as follows: 20.5, 17.6, 16.7, 16.0, 17.7, 13.9, 23.7, 21.1, 25.6, 21.1.
As for comparison with the AFL Champions same 1960-1969: 20.5, 23.5, 14.3, 19.8, 27.1, 15.6, 22.4, 21.9, 22.8, 26.8.
Upshot: the AFL’s best team’s leading receiver ypc was better than the NFL’s same in 6 of the 10 years, with one year being a tie. So the NFL was in fact only better in 3 of those 10 years. I’d say that infers, suggests and moreso affirms the AFL ‘was’ in fact the more high-flying and bomb’s away league, compared the NFL. The Champions those NFL years had running backs named Jim Brown & Jim Taylor among others and they led the NFL in rushing 6 of those 10 seasons, each no less than 1,257 or more yards each of the 6 years. AFL, only twice in those 10 years did the Champion team also have the leading rusher, and in fact twice during those years the AFL’s leading rusher didn’t even get to 1,000 yards.
Of note, as defenses (it is generally conceded) should be ‘improving with each season of further experience, each the NFL’s 4 seasons 1966-1969 saw the highest ypc average of any their Champions, not what should? have been the case compared the earlier 60’s, when talent it has been argued was not as evolved as it should’ve been, years later.
Gee I dunno, wasn’t it the NFL’s tack to dismiss AFL players/stats, because talent the younger league was questionable, especially defensive backfield? ‘Whom’ was it exactly NFL receivers were lighting up in their league? More than one case, an player released by an AFL team was in fact signed to a contract by an NFL team & made their team(s)… this included players who played defensive back.
Too, by year the merger’s announcement ’66 the NFL had almost twice as many teams and it follows players as the AFL, 15 to 9 teams, and hundreds more players. I will posit that if the supposed ‘talent level’ in the NFL was so much greater than that the AFL, NFL receivers should not have been burning up their own DB’s via all those yards per catch receiving results. Unless of course the NFL was ‘watered down’ in terms talent, more teams & players than the AFL, and in fact not ‘all that’ despite what their own PR trumpeted. Maybe it was for these reasons NFL wide receivers posted gaudy stats… and still weren’t on par with their AFL counterparts.
“This theory is kind of funny.”
– it also kind of shoots NFL shill- er, ‘cold hard facts’ claim of second-class status talent level AFL players/wide receivers, out of the water…
“Because when we look at the NFL Record & Fact Book – which includes AFL stats – we see only NFL receivers from the 1960s at the top of the average-per-reception list.”
– while CHF correctly notes that a minimum of 200 catches (an arbitrary number) is the requirement receivers (in the same way minimum 750 carries is required place all-time, rushers), what’s ‘not’ noted is also worth mention.
CHF example: “(Homer) Jones, who spent most of his career with the NFL’s Giants in the Fran Tarkenton years, is No. 1 all time. He averaged 22.26 yards per catch during his seven-year NFL career – almost all of it played during the height of the interleague wars.”
– ‘almost’ all of it is not as ‘all of it’… that Jones played only 7 years, only 6 of those in the pre-merger days, and had only 214 total catches ‘barely’ places him over the threshold 200.
Comparison, Warren Wells average per catch was 23.1, better than Jones who ended his career 1970 at age 29 with only 10 catches and a 14.1 ypc average. That Wells played in the NFL ‘and’ AFL 1960’s and his last year was in 1970, when pass defense might? have been better first year the merger than earlier years 60’s, one could reasonably argue his stats are better compared Jones, one-year demarcation (1970 merger) being insufficient to dismiss Well’s results by one measly season.
To wit, CHF notes “Jones caught 142 passes in those three seasons for a mind-blowing 3,310 yards. That’s an explosive 23.31 YPC over the course of three seasons. He also caught 28 TDS over those three seasons.”
– like Jones best 3 seasons 1966-1968, during Wells 3 best 1968-1970, he was actually better than Jones: 143 catches, 3,332 yards & 36 tds. So, was Jones ypc really better than Wells, let alone best ever? In fact, it can be argued the opposite is suggested, Wells is #1.
That CHF had to resort to name-calling the AFL (an old NFL tack) in its article, i.e., “Kool-Aid peddlers” etc., suggests bias, being in cahoots & even better, envy theirs.
Long Live The ‘Better’… ‘A’merican ‘F’ootball ‘L’eague
🙂
What could possibly go wrong in Oakland 1967 with a new QB, an unproven WR named Fred and a waiver wire pickup released by both Uncle Sam & Kansas City? As it turned out, not much: one loss the entire 1967 regular season, best record in AFL history 13 wins & a date with destiny, Superbowl II.
On its face, one might be tempted to think that the Raiders got lucky with the eventual production of Warren Wells & Fred Biletnikoff… that would not be giving due credit to those players, coaching and more so perhaps to Al Davis & Ron Wolf, who brought them to Oakland.
Biletnikoff was expected to do well as a pro, yet after two years of injury and less than expected result, he entered 1967 a question mark. That he was also (seemingly, by default) counted on as a starter, tasked with filling the large shoes of Art Powell, merely one of the best WR’s who ever played, a lot to ask for; Biletnikoff’s Hall of Fame end answered.
Wells journey to eventual stardom was even more circuitous. A young NFL player in 1964-65 with the Lions, he took some time off the aforementioned Uncle Sam’s request. By the time he returned in ’67, Detroit had moved on to *other* options. When the next four too short years had finished, Wells became (arguably) the best deep threat in all of pro football.
In a league that specialized in ‘the bomb’, Wells was to become just that (with a brand new QB too, some guy named Daryle Lamonica, aka ‘The Mad Bomber’ of AFL lore.) Talk about your basic confluence of fortunate events: Lamonica, Wells, Gene Upshaw, Willie Brown and George Blanda, all five new Raiders ’67. My opine, that off-season cadre talent acquired is rivaled by only the 1974 Steelers ‘draft’, as best ever.
Back to the beginning, Biletnikoff overcame his injuries and limited playing time afore to become a dynamic and reliable target for the Raiders. If the great Baltimore Colts Hall of Fame WR Raymond Berry’s moves/sideline work was considered better than Biletnikoff’s, only because he had the NFL’s propaganda machine on his side… Biletnikoff was second to none.
As for Wells path post NFL, enter Kansas City, where the defending Chiefs had Championship caliber WR’s like veteran Chris Burford, young & already great Otis Taylor & a couple guys with untapped potential: 9.5 100 dash man Frank Pitts & Gloster Richardson, the latter who was to stickum what Biletnikoff & his later teammate Lester Hayes became better known for, their gooey trademarks.) The Chiefs also drafted a kick-returner and a potential WR named Noland ‘Supergnat’ Smith that year, who had possibly the most exceptional 1967 pre-season returning kicks ever seen in pro football. Upshot: Kansas City decided to drop Wells near the end of pre-season in lieu the aforementioned Smith and the other four referenced WR’s theirs.
So it was that Fred Biletnikoff and Warren Wells became teammates. The 1967 Raiders had a trio of other players who provided more question marks than answers that upcoming season: Bill Miller, Glenn Bass and Lionel Taylor, all of them due injuries and age were seen as more stopgap than solution. Bass (injuries) & Taylor (a star in Denver for years/perhaps their only) made it to training camp/pre-season but were later released. Thus Miller and Biletnikoff become the Raiders starters, Wells subbing in. By the end of ’67 the Raiders were in the Superbowl, as they established themselves among the very best in football.
_______________
(*other* Detroit’s bad luck became Oakland’s good: the Lions top receiver in 1967 was a RB with 39 catches; their top WR had just 26. Detroit’s WR Pat Studstill had actually been an All-Pro for them in 1966, in addition to being team punter. Injured in 1967, Studstill was never again the same player he had been. Meanwhile in Oakland, Wells turned 13 catches and 23.2 yards per catch limited playing time into 6 tds, 1 less than the Lions 7 total, team; the rest as they say, history. The Raiders went on to become ‘The Raiders’ we came to know and love (or revile as the case may be 🙂
How such a collection of talent the late 1960’s Raiders never managed put it all together for multiple Championships let alone even one, still puzzling approaching 50 years later.
Great history lesson! I wonder if the 1970 Detroit Lions with Warren Wells would have won the Super Bowl? That team had Charlie Sanders and no one else as receivers. Wells would have been a deep threat and opened up the underneath. Sometimes one player more is all you need!
With all due respect to the Raiders, the Lions, and Warren Wells himself, it’s hard to figure if he would have had the same results with the Lions than he did with the Raiders.
He only caught 2 passes in 64, then was in the military the next two years before joining the Raiders. There was a different coaching staff with Detroit, but no guarantee he would have been used any different if at all.
Sometimes a player changes organizations and becomes a different player. I think of Rich Jackson going from Oakland to Denver and becoming an All-Pro lineman. Also, in baseball, David Ortiz going to Boston. There is no assurance(in fact a good chance)they would not have had the same results if they had stayed where they were. It often takes a change of scenery and situation to make a player a different player.
Article:Our Groans, Our Glory, Our Greatness
Giving birth to greatness in a university often is accompanied by groans of challenge, struggle and what may appear to be insurmountable tasks. The birth of Texas Southern University (TSU) started with a groan from a man who was denied entrance in another major Texas institution. The groans of segregation gave rise to the birth of a powerful historical university that served the needs of the disenfranchised in 1947. Those groans were a blessing in disguise for they were the sound of birth pains, giving rise to an institution that has produced leaders who are prepared to lead in a culturally diverse United States of America as well as internationally. Many of those leaders have been outstanding on the gridiron in college and professional football.
R. C. Thomas remembers the groans of a TSU player who loved to practice on the playing field under the leadership of Head Coach Alexander Durley who was also a mathematics professor. R. C. was a young man who served as the water boy for the TSU team. He is the brother of W. K. Hicks, an outstanding former NFL player with the New York Jets. R. C. remembers Hicks’ friend and colleague Warren Wells, who was so passionate about football practice that R.C. sometimes heard him groan when he did his drills and other schemes in practice. Wells is among nearly 65 other Texas Southern University football stars that made memorable contributions to the American Football League and the National Football League.
Coach Alexander Durley would send his football players to the Mathematics Lab, in Samuel Nabrit Hall, for mathematics tutoring to help them maintain good averages in their mathematics classes. I met one of the players who became a great “deep threat”. In 1962, he claimed that he did mathematics on the football field while I do it on the blackboard. It took a lot of years for me to see the wisdom in his comment.
The preparation and expended intellectual, physical and spiritual energy imparted by the mathematics professor, Alexander Durley, who was also the head coach in the Sixties yielded a cadre of physical warriors. These high achievers made phenomenal gains in professional football. Many, however, have not been heralded in the national media, but now their university has dropped the gauntlet to wage war against oversights and selective exposure. Now is the time for the former TSU stars to shine in glory as we reflect on their great achievements at Homecoming in 2015.
The legacies of achievement in sports are founded on the passions and pathos of the academic leaders, both past and present. Isaac Newton said, “If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.” So, the giants in athletic achievement of the past at Texas Southern have established a robust foundation for the future. Some of the great achievers in professional football who I have researched are:
Douglas, John (1967 – 1969)
Frazier, Charlie (1962 – 1970)
Hicks, W.K. (1964 – 1972)
Hill, Winston (1963 – 1977)
Holmes, Ernie (1972 – 1978)
Jones, Homer (1964 – 1970)
Rice, Andy (1966 – 1973)
Wells, Warren (1964 – 1970)
White, John (1960 – 1961)
One of the powerful professional football players who attended Texas Southern University and who brought honor and glory to us all was Ernie Holmes. He was a part of the strong defense for the Pittsburgh Steelers. The other strong men of the “Steel Curtain” were “Mean” Joe Greene, L. C. Greenwood, and Dwight White.
Ernie Holmes inspired me because he is the father of a young mathematician who made history by becoming the second African American male to complete a Ph.D. in mathematics at the University of Houston. The fact that the senior Holmes fathered the historical mathematician is evidence, in my opinion, that the men on the playing field are often men of high intellect, and those genes are passed down to the next generation of achievers in football, mathematics and other disciplines.
Another reason I developed a passion for researching and writing about the men who attended Texas Southern and who played professional football is because in 1974 I hired a relative of one of the Steel Curtain group. Bob White, a former probation officer, would brag about the feats of the Steel Curtain during breaks at an Urban League Emergency School Aid Act (ESAA) project located at Blodgett and Dowling at the former Urban League location. Bob White was the uncle of Dwight White of the Steel Curtain.
John White, another TSU alumnus, also inspired a passion in me for research and writing about football. He headed Project P.U.L.L. after his career ended, and he hired other former NFL players from Texas Southern as a part of his community service effort to touch and direct the lives of those who had unusual challenges when they transitioned from the glory of professional football back to mundane lifestyles in Third Ward. John White’s project was located on McGowan and Hwy 288. The purpose of the project was youth development, and leadership development. Deloyd Parker, the Executive Director and Founder of S.H.A.P. E. Community Center reminded me that Project P.U.L.L. was funded by professional athletes and community persons.
Winston Hill inspired me, too. Hill protected the blind-side of Joe Namath. Over the years I have questioned the selection process of the committee responsible for voting players into the Professional Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. Two visits to the Hall of Fame shifted my interest to examine the selection process. One research question that I have posed to hundreds of students requires us to look at the interaction analysis on the football playing field. The argument I present is that a quarterback cannot be successful if the wide receiver or others do not make successful receptions. The quarterback cannot be successful if he is sacked. Therefore, the players who successfully protect the quarterback are as valuable as the quarterback. The logic directs our thinking to conjecture that if the quarterback is in the Hall of Fame, then the key players who protected him should be enshrined.
The other arguments that have been presented in more than 1400 articles on Bleacher Report and Raider Nation Times include a characterization of intensity, integrity, and consistency in performance on the playing field. Several TSU alumni demonstrated those characteristics on the playing field. Many of the more than 65 TSU alumni who became AFL or NFL players have not been recognized for their illustrious achievements. Some argue that players from Historically Black Colleges and Universities, in the past, did not have the support system to protect and promote their achievements in professional football. Also, there are those who agree with the premises of life after football challenges depicted in the documentary entitled, “Broke,” distributed by ESPN.
Texas Southern University is leading the movement to recognize its own graduates and former students by featuring their achievements in both their profession and in their communities. The celebratory events of this year’s Homecoming will resound through this nation, signaling a new era of recognition and honor for those who have inspired millions by their outstanding performance on the gridiron.
We salute our professional football stars. We are grateful for the joy and inspiration they are giving us and have given us through the years.
Posted in Mathematics | Tagged football, Mathematics | 132 Comments
Great article ! ! !
I wasn’t aware of the history of Texas Southern, nor did I realize the great roster of players that came out of there. I started following football as a kid in the late ’70’s, and I remember Ernie Holmes from those great Steeler teams.
The other players I know about are Winston Hill, Warren Wells, and Homer Jones.
I’m wondering if any of The Little Rock Nine (Central High, 1957)–Ernest Green, Melba Pattillo, etc.–went on to college at Texas Southern.
The greatest deep threat is Mr. Warren Wells, from Texas Southern University, an HBCU. A 10 am college class compared him to: Odell Beckham, Michael Irvin, Dez Bryant, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Otis Taylor, Randy Moss, Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Larry Fitgerald, DeSean Jackson, and Cliff Branch.
Mr. Wells maintained a yard/reception average greater than or equal to 20.5 for four consecutive years.
Hear hear!
Author author!
Encore encore!
Would also mention that former NFL’r Paul Warfield was also pretty good: a 20.1 ‘career’ ypc average, over 13 seasons – 7 consecutive years of 20+ ypc seasons.
John Gilliam (save for one 19.9 year, a single .1 tick) 20+ ypc over 5 consecutive seasons, and one 19.2 shy a 6th.
And one of my personal favorites, Elbert ‘Golden Wheels’ Dubenion: he got a late start, age 27 the afl, but still averaged 18 ypc career, and had one eye-popping season of 27.1 ypc, in 1964, even better than Wells best season of 26.8.
That ‘Golden Wheels’ was not even mentioned by the self-appointed experts over at ‘cold hard facts’ in their hatchet-job the AFL, despite the fact he had more than catches (42), yards (1,139) & tds (10) that stellar season his 1964, but found the time to gush over Bucky ‘&!*%’n Pope who in the same year ’64 had only 25 catches (which makes his result a non-qualifier) to average 31.4, a bit specious. That an injured Pope never again thrived, just 9 catches his remaining 3 years in the NFL, grand total of 34 catches in 4 years career, well, draw your own conclusions.
Call it arbitrary or not (and I do), but shy some ridculously low total and too shy using common sense, cherry-picking to lack of full disclosure to outright lying has become accepted, apparently.
Example: modern day media (both local and national) that the Kansas City Chiefs Jamaal Charles is the “all-time leading yards per carry’ rusher in NFL history.
This is flat out wrong, deceitful (and I’m a Chiefs fan since 1963.) There are at least* three players ahead of him in career ypc: Michael Vick at 7.0, and Randall Cunningham at 6.4 – that both were QB’s (running ones) – does not change the fact. They qualify under the NFL career requisite, 750 carries. So Charles is, under NFL requirements, no better than third best at 5.5 – great to sure, best, not even.
Another guy who has a better ypc average than Charles was, like Jamaal, also a RB / running back. Marion Motley averaged 5.7 ypc career… for the record, Charles ypc average career is a great, but not best, whether 5.5 overall (where he places 3rd best) or just among RB’s (where he places 2nd best with * (‘asterisk’ due the fact Motley played some of his career in the other pro league AAFC before his Cleveland Browns joined up with the NFL.
The rationale for excluding Motley’s pre-NFL stats in entirety terms our discussion far as qualifying, due (apparently) the fact complete set of game notes/stat recaps for each and every AAFC game played were not produced for the lord of all, NFL. The same NFL that (had to agree, negotiation) to accept AFL stats when the two leagues merged, 1970.
Much like the Hall of Fame voting process, the convoluted methodology and inconsistent tack voters as the NFL/stat-keepers use to ‘bless’ or ‘condemn’ the stats & players of the past, be it AFL, AAFC or other, just another example of playing hard & loose with what should be equitable but instead is rife with favoritism &subjective bias… it is also sickening.
Long Live The AFL
Cliff Branch ! ! ! He belongs in The Hall of Fame. The man had blazing speed, and he was a major cog in the Raiders’ vertical passing game.
I had his football cards in the ’70’s, and he was still going strong in 1983, when he scored a 99-yard touchdown against my beloved Redskins in October. Then the two teams met again in the Super Bowl, and Branch scored another touchdown. The Redskins won the October game at RFK Stadium in D.C., 37-35. The Super Bowl…was another story. Derrick Jensen is still in my nightmares.
Otis Taylor had the size, the speed, the hands, the moves. He was the complete package ! ! !
I’ve talked abundantly about O-Taylor on this site. He’s THE FIRST AFL player I want to see in The Pro Football Hall of Fame ! ! ! As a kid in the late ’70’s, he was one of the first AFL players I knew about.
One last blip mine before my soapbox collapses, or explodes: though I ‘was’ an Chiefs fan (today’s version can take a hike, Chiefs, NFL, the ‘I’ndividuals self-aggrandizing types, prima donas the ‘hey, look at me everybody’ gyraters & machinators), further abhor lack of common sense.
All that to say, if Motley does ‘not’ qualify because he played in the AAFC (though his 828 career carries does qualify him though his average was but 92 carries per year, why is Charles (erroneously) referred ‘best ypc ever’ or even (if) the ‘best ypc RB ever’? As stated earlier, an arbitrary measure, if not a totally specious nod to someone like Pope who had a brief moment/result in time, then disappeared into obscurity.
Charles has not many more carries than Motley’s 828, only 1320 in Jamaal’s 8 years (only 165 per year on average), yet, Jim Brown (still subjectively the greatest ever my opine, or tied with Gale Sayers) carried many more times than Charles (more than 1,000 x more) all the extra wear & tear, and is still ‘right there’ at 5.2 career ypc.
Suffice to say that if Charles ends up carrying the ball another 1,039 times his career (he never will), which would match Brown’s carries total, common sense suggests his ypc career average will go down – by a lot, probably into the 4’s/sub 5.0 my educated guess.
Brown 2,359 carries ~ 12,312 yards ~ 106 tds ~ 5.2 average
Charles 1,320 carries ~ 7,220 yards ~ 42 tds ~ 5.5 average
Motley 828 carries ~ 4,720 yards ~ 31 tds ~ 5.7 average
Also of note, Jim Brown’s 104.3 yards per game career average ranks him 1st all-time NFL history; Charles comes in at 37th at 72.2 yards per game career average.
Exhausted yet? Me too (pardon any typos, which there always are)
🙂
More research is needed on
1. Integrity on the field
2. Intensity on the field
3. Consistency on the field
I compared Paul Warfield with Warren Wells using a creative method of
the following
1. I looked at the first seven years of each players career.
2. Since Wells did not get much playing time with Detroit, I deleted the first year.
3. Since Wells was drafted into the Army, I deleted year two and year three.
4. I compared four consecutive years of each player’s career using this data (year four, five, six, and seven).
PW WW
21.9 23.2
21.3 21.5
21.1 26.8
25.1 21.7
Average of PW over the four year sequence: 22.35
Average of WW over the four year sequence (after military service): 23.3
Consider this model!
The concern I have is that a player’s career/stats must be considered as a whole, not just his ‘best’ years (any more than just his worst.) As different players careers be of different lengths, another fork in the road presents. Still, any models/legitimate attempts to improve questionable methods is, at minimum, thought provoking.
I don’t subscribe to ‘the greatest ever’ (insert athlete name) exercise in futility… is no such thing. No agreement on criteria, no consensus (even were there, no way to validate said shy agreed criteria); too, who would be final arbiter of opinion?
There are raw stats and there is raw reality, the latter too often influential and yet overlooked.
One example: Otis Taylor, one of my heroes the Chiefs, is listed as having played 11 years in pro football. In fact, he played 10 years & but three offensive ‘snaps’ in 1975, season opener, before being injured and his season and career as it turned out, ended. Comparing one player vs another, one would have to examine the ‘games played’ – not only that, but participation therein, i.e., ‘snaps’ and ‘targets’ to get a truer picture reality. As it’s much easier to just do the simple math, catches, yards, tds, years played etc., it was an 11 year career for Taylor.
It is said you cannot compare eras and players from each… while there may be limited truth in said, in fact, every era has unique advantages & disadvantages. My opine, in the end it becomes a wash, in general. What cannot be disputed is that player X got so many opportunities and player Z so many. Things being at least somewhat relative, each did whatever they did in those number of opportunities.
As there is no way shy time travel and vacuum sealed/controlled environment for each player to face the same opposition & conditions at the apex of each players ‘heyday’, their prime, it is difficult if not impossible compare them as to ‘who was the best’.
_____________________
That said, I did some research & comparison of MLB players Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds, the question: who was the better home run hitter. Not ‘prolific’ (most), but ‘better’ (hr/at bat ratio.)
We can’t create equal conditions, opposition & length career; can measure opportunity /results. All 3 (at their best) were baseball’s best, in general. Ruth hit more home runs as an individual than entire ‘teams’ of his day, Aaron eventually passed Ruth in home runs (as a black man during an time such it wasn’t appreciated) & Bonds hit more home runs in a single season than any player ever (with or without a medicinal assist, PEDs, believe as you wish.)
Nod “yeah but, yeah but, that (whichever) era was easier than that (other one)!” And too, “today’s players are bigger, stronger and faster” etc. yadda yadda yadda.
BS
There have always been bigger, stronger, faster players each & every era and still is today. That then as now, the biggest, strongest, fastest players/teams are not always best and do not always win the game or stat race, unarguable.
Ruth never faced players of color? He also never used steroids. He never faced modern AL pitchers? Bonds never faced old timers Koufax, Carlton, Gibson, Seaver, Drysdale & many more. Bonds never faced the great pitchers of Ruth’s time, as Ruth never faced same modern.
Too, steroids era vs players of color argument: steroids do affect results, only those contentious for the sake of argument would not agree. Case segregation, some ‘assume’ great players of a league non-MLB would unquestionably remain great when/if they had faced MLB players. Likely, non-MLB players then would’ve seen diminished returns, be less than great – mediocre perhaps had they faced MLB players regularly. Talented MLB players would in the process give truer gauge non-MLB players abilities & vice versa. So the segregation argument vs Ruth works the other way too, and as we noted steroids allow a cheater to gain advantage, segregation argument is more so speculation.
So what to do/how to compare?
Opportunities/at bats.
Even ‘with’ steroids (if you believe he partook), Bonds wasn’t the hr hitter Ruth was. When both players were equal re: opportunities, Ruth was clearly superior. At 8,399 at bats end of his career, Ruth had 714 hrs. At the same # of at bats, Bonds had hit only 619 – or 95 less hrs.
Similarly, equal opportunities each player, Ruth had more hits & more doubles & more rbis & more walks & more intentional walks & more hits & a higher slugg % & a higher OBP & a higher batting average and… well, you get the idea.
Of note, when Aaron had an equal number of opportunties/8,399 at bats as Ruth/Bonds, Aaron had just 493 home runs. Mark McGwire ended his career running on fumes…PED use (he admitted) or no, though his hr/at bat ratio was a bit better than Ruth’s, McGwire was still a distant 131 home runs behind Ruth, career. McGwire’s diminishing results suggest he would have had to play much longer and (as the case Jamaal Charles vs Jim Brown) would have seen his hr/at bat ratio plunge to get to 714 career home runs, to even tie Ruth.
_________________________
Back to NFL stats/HOF voting etc., the seeming ‘double secret handshake’ tack Hall of Fame voting, wherein those who are not members of the ‘society’ cannot examine their methodology – if in fact they truly have one. If they do, appears it is inconsistent, subjective and part & parcel, subject the greatest danger known to man: his own bias, man himself.
OK that’s it, time for a sandwich & a cold drink; done posting (till the itch presents again.)
🙂
I am create a composite listing of players drafted in the first round of every professional league that held a draft: NFL, AAFC, AFL, WFL, USFL, other leagues including the CFL. (Only the CFL players that attended college here in the USA.
I know that the original AFL Draft in 1960 players were territorial.
However, does anyone know in what order the AFL teams made their selection? Was it in alphabetical order by the city of the team? For now and till I find out–if I ever do–I will list them in this manner.
Thank you for any assistance.
According to the ‘Sporting News’ American Football League Official History 1960-1969, published in 1970, page 116 under ‘Historical Highlights’:
“draft was by position (11 offensive positions) with first order of selection drawn for, then alternated.”
_______________
‘Who’ picked first and ‘what’ order the ‘draw’ other teams followed, was not referenced.
As for those involved, Baron Hilton (now 88 years of age) is still alive… shy someone querying him or some other participants still alive as to 66 year old recollections, no other suggestion as to finding out the order… good luck.
Thank you AFL for your response. I had TSN AFL History; but because of way-to-many moves down through the years, it has been misplaced.
In a quick review, I noticed all players from the 1960 Draft were offensive players/read position.
I have listed each player in alphabetical order–of the city of the franchise and will continue to do so, till I am provided proof otherwise.
If you’re interested in anything like what college your favorite team drafted the most players from–1st round only–or vise versa; tell me know (Todd can provide you with my email.)
I will have a composite of total of colleges with the most per league I mentioned prior and overall total.
For sure, if I ever learn of what order, will share this news here.
During the Common Draft Era, I listed each AFL team’s selections…Overall and in order of which AFL team made the choice.
* Typo
56 year old recollections
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